After scouring the forums, I've found what kind of paper to use (PH neutral, around 80g, typically Japanese Masa).
But as for the linen... From what I've read people now use canvas?
What are the typical weights used for backing (in grams or ounces) for both linen and canvas?
I've read to use untreated linen, but what does that mean exactly?
Also with the canvas, is it generally called duck canvas
My issue is that in Paris theirs a garment district where they sell everything under the sun but w. restoration / backing, I want to make damn sure I get the right goods... And find the right translation.
Thanks a heap. I'm back in Paris and after I get my next shipment in, I'll get started on my first resto project and post the resulting disaster (in parts) on these forums.
Yeah, not sure who uses actual linen, but most use cotton duck canvas. Unprimmed. I get mine from Jerry's Artarama. 60x30, 12oz; although I've read some use 14oz, i get nice results from the 12oz.
Masa, i use a soft white, 70gsm, pliable enough when wet/damp to be laid down nicely and glued to the canvas. I get mine from Talas in NY.
Absolutely post some pictures of your linenbacking adventures, would love to see them!
One more question. As I'm in Paris, you would think you could find a lot of the materials here and for the most part, you can... but it's also a bit of a nightmare.
On paper...
Masa paper here is only found in smaller sized sheets. No rolls for sale.
That being said, here's the question:
If the consensus is 70gsm, masa paper, obv acid free, would something of similar weight work or is it imperative to have the paper be 70-100 percent sulphite?
For example: I can find rolls of Kozo paper but usually in lower grains.
Basically, is it OK to use something other than Masa paper? And if yes, what should you look out for in terms of:
composition weights etc?
Most of the japanese paper here is from Awagami but it's like Shiramine (110gsm but doesn't list if its ph neutral).
One potential paper I have found which I can get on the cheap is this:
Anyway, I hope everyone is safe and sound. Things got a bit nuts here in Paris and we're still under a pseudo lockdown. Virus def isn't a joke. Few acquaintances here had it bad but all recovered.
Since we have the small luxury of having a spare room in our Parisien flat, I've annexed it (wife was not happy) so I can start working to conserve & restore my far too many posters (wife was happy).
For a workspace, I got a foldout ping pong table. Not entirely ideal, but it folds away. Was cheap. Has a decent size (154cm by 76cm) and is sturdy. Should support the weight of a frame and the canvas.
See photo with recently arrived 1kg of Calcium Hydroxide and Sodium Hypochlorite (french bleach which is 3.7 percent compared to Clorox which is about 6 percent...). Trying to find raw Calcium Hypochlorite was a bit complicated here and getting Chromium T you need a license...
Just for others to list what I've got (and the cost, which is far more expensive here than in the US...)
Ping Pong table: 100€ 12oz duck canvas: 220€ * Fabriano Academia 120 grain 1m x 10m roll: 80€ ** 1kg Calcium Hydroxide: 28€ 250g Calcium Carbonate: 8€ Faber watercolour pencils: 40€ Agate burnisher: 30€ Buckets / 1L Spray bottles / Rollers / Squeegee: 48€ Fancy eraser some resto guy recommended: 4€ Towels: 6€ 80 micron polyester roll: 40€ *** French version of Bestine: 20€ Plastic tarp: 4€ Gaffer tape: 7€ Shears / cutting razor / clamps / saw / odd tools needed: 60€ Staple gun w. staples: 40€ 3M mask + filters + safety goggles + pack of gloves: 60€ 6 34mm x 48mm x 2000mm wooden beams: 14€ 10L of distilled water: 8€ 6L 60% Acetic Acid (was cheaper for 6L than 1L...): 20€ French, pre made Wheat Paste I won't be using: 8€ 48 beers, 2 bottles of Woodfords, case of Matua wine: 130€ Wife's patience: Priceless
Still needed:
Thicker (at least 120 microns) roll of polyster or mylar. Rubber matt to roll over top of table. Wheat Starch (about 1KG). ****
All in so far (not including posters ofc): 970€ (polyster will be another 100 at least)...
*canvas was bought from Jackson's in the UK. Had to add about 100€ for shipping an oversized item to France. Would have bought from Talas but they want 200€ to ship to Europe so...
**A roll of masa paper here... no one carries it. Every other kind of paper they have. Not masa.. If ordered, it will run me over 240+€. They sell it by the sheet but sheets are small. SO! An alternate I found was this paper by Fabriano which someone did recommend as getting Masa outside of Japan / US / Canada seems difficult. I called the company and asked around here and it is used by conservationist so it seems pretty good. Will see how it works. Once I find a source for Masa here though, I will get a roll to compare.
***Ah the Mylar. A 10m roll of Mylar runs over 200€ here. Closer to 3 or 4. Why? Not a clue. The next thing was to find a roll of polyester, but since I had zero idea what the thickness should be, I got the thickest one I could find (80 microns). That's about half what a Talas .7 thickness roll of Mylar is, but still on the thicker side of what is normally available. Can it work? I think so, but the main question is will it support the poster when lifting it to mount... Unsure so I'm looking for something a bit thicker unless someone here says 'nope, that's good for what you need'.
****Wheat Starch. Jesus Gawd Almighty. A number of companies here sell Wheat Paste, Corn Paste, Plant Paste... All claiming to be ph neutral and all for conservation. and all already a liquid / cooked... it's quite strange. I think I'm going to just end up buying 1KG of wheat starch from a pharmacy supplier (Coopers is the brand), and cook it myself. After following links that Charlie has shared over the years, I've read a bit and it really seems to be about the grade of the starch (in addition to the cook and ratio).
All in all what I thought would be the easiest place to find art conservation supplies has been a bit of a nightmare to get raw materials. Raw canvas / linen for example: IN THE GARMENT DISTRICT WHERE FASHION DESIGNERS BUY BULK MATERIAL... was gonna run me around 400€ and up... for 10m... bonkers.
Whatever. I'm invested. I'm ready. And next week I'll post some photos of my first attempt at this. Can't wait.
Polyester will work fine. I use to prefer it for more delicate stuff as you can wash while the poster is sandwiched as it is porous. With Mylar you have to lift the Mylar off... you can simply float wash with the spun polyester.
34 gsm for washing if the mylar doesn't work out. I like the 70 gsm for paper/starch backing and heat pressing (ironing with a banding iron)
Hah! I was just on their site today and called them asking if their wheat paste is ph neutral (it's a little acidic @ 6ph, which I'm not sure is a go... aiming for a product that's closer to 7 unless someone here says otherwise).
Them + Jackson's Art (also in the UK) seem to be the place to go too.
As for the 120gsm Fabriano paper, this is what it says on the website:
Fabriano Accademia drawing paper is made of high quality lignin free and acid free cellulose, guaranteeing long conservatione over time. Produced with 100% of E.C.F. pulp (Elemental Chlorine Free),
For Sulphite paper in Paris, it's only sold in sheets or Mulberry or lighter gsm papers (they all come from Awagami AFAIK). If you think the Fabriano is a bad idea in terms of conservation, then i'll scrap it and use it as a Mummy costume for Halloween. I need to dive into that Conservation Wiki to see if they've any documentation on ECF pulp papers...
Don't scrap it give it a try. At 120 gsm you may find it too heavy closer to card stock but not blotter paper... It will probably take longer to dry completely so add a little time but it should be more durable during placement. As long as it remains flexible - you will have to see if it stays flexible with the cotton... BUT I've backed half sheets of the same weight and they are pliable. Let us know how it goes.
FYI: You can buffer ph neutral wheat paste with calcium carbonate if you cook it. Just mix 10% in by weight before you cook. My wheat paste here was not ph neutral, so I always added Calcium Carbonate.
After a birthday (I'm OLDER! w00t!), a brief holiday (stayed on Mont Saint Michel with zero tourist save for myself and my wife), and having to run back to Paris due to confinement order (yay Covid...)...
I'm back with an update and progress with pics!
Stretching teh Canvas.
Never done it before. Small frame (for daybills and inserts), was a breeze. Tight as a butthole.
Larger frame for one sheets, was tricky. At one point I had a bit of a swell to one side, but I stapled it just around the edge and it seemed to do the trick... Save for one itty bitty swell near the top. Hopefully it's still workable.
(you can see the swell at the top in the pic below)
Cookin' teh yayo (Wheat Paste)
After doing a lot of research on Wheat Paste (mainly the Talas brand everyone uses, I learned it's all made (that type) in the midwest for food processing. Tried to get some as the company is owned by Junkers (I fell into the rabbit hole here). After a phone call to a pharma company here (Coopers), I found their wheat paste, is lab grade and highly refined and is easily attainable in Paris. It's PH neutral which is a plus.
To make things easier I figured I could use a mason jar for mixing although not for cooking (though I could probably boil distilled water and just pour it in the jar)...
This is how that turned out. Shake it baby.
The usual suspects. After letting it sit for about 60 minutes it separated so I shook it up again before the cook.
Cooking wasn't very long at all. May be the induction stove. Not sure. After about 10 minutes it thickened and five minutes later really got thick. Killed the temp and kept stirring the whole time.
In the fridge it went for the night. The next day I scooped it out from the fridge (was like super thick. I used a cup of wheat startch and figured to try and make that last for mounting paper + poster across a 1 sheet and 1 insert (too ambitious?). That's about a liter and a half of the goods.
What I didn't do is forgot to measure out how much distilled water in grams to get the paste to the honey consistency. That said the paste when strained was HIGHLY refined to the point where hardly any clumps where left after the blender the next day.
Sprayed the backing paper with water to get them moist. Rolled the paste on the canvas'. Then rolled paste on the paper. Then put paper onto the canvas, rolling out any bubbles.
Wrinkles bad.
In the hall drying until tomorrow.
One thing did happen tho. My table isn't wide enough for the whole 1 sheet frame. When applying the paper and rolling it, a strange discolouration appeared where the table ended. See pic below.
Hopefully that's just excess paste soaking through the paper where their was more pressure on the paper when I was rolling it down... Hopefully.
Anyway, I decided to wait to post until I had something to really share instead of just blah blah.
More to come this weekend! Here's to no burning the hands, paper, colors or eyeballs! Wet work up next!
Justin, that's a solid start! Wheat starch looks to be in good shape after the fridge, and yes-add water in the blender to get the paste to the consistency of "runny honey" (Charlie phrase).
I use a new painting brush to apply the wheat paste-too much seems to create lumps, too much paste squeezing out here and there. Yes, important to have a smooth, flat work table that will hold your entire frame so when you roll out the masa, it is perfect, not one wrinkle or fold, or anything. Maybe move frame around so the part you need to roll out is on the flat table.
Yes, wheat starch cooks best on the stove, then into the fridge overnight.
Can't tell for sure, but the fold of masa, could be an issue, maybe the poster wont have to lay on that portion. Otherwise the masa looks to be laid down nicely. Wait at least 24 hours; masa need to be dry before adding the wet poster.
Went to work on two posters over the weekend. An insert from The Fixer with rather thick paper stock and a very elegant looking East German poster for Bedroom Window.
Here's how they turned out. I'm doing the resto this week and will do two more posters this weekend.
The Fixer (the first one I did), ended up tearing off the bottom third on a really gnarly fold line. Was kinda happy it did bc it was good practice to mount both pieces and will be fun to try to restore it back to life.
Close up on the tear I'll need to fix. Will probably end up buffering the crap out of it (i think?) and then go over it w. watercolour pencils.
I realize some things posted are getting a bit long in the tooth, however, if anyone has a video (or captioned pics) of wheat paste allocation to canvas/ duck and to Mesa, can you post it?
Is the wheat paste from Talas need anything added to it to use?
Water and heat! Pot, scale, fridge... Mix it all up with deionized water per instructions. Some folks cook right away, I soak for an hour. After it is cooked I would leave min overnight in the fridge.
I would also buffer mine with Calcium Carbonate (10% by weight) which is in powder form and mixed into the wheat paste prior to cooking. If provides some additional reactants for acid (hydrogen) buildup over time since wheat paste is a little on the low side ph-wise (weak acid). There use to be a rumor that lab grade wheat paste yellowed over time and that could be because the wheat paste was low 6 maybe getting into the 5s without buffer. Just thinking out loud on that one.
Do you use holytex or mylar to create a sandwich for bleaching and cleaning? What number or thickness?
Yes. I have used both. The holytex will let the process breathe a bit more but you have to be careful as it does not support as much as the mylar.
Here is what I had ordered in the past:
-The mylar needs to be at least 7 mill...
-Holytex on Talas: #3265 45" width Thickness: 0.0053" +/- 0.0009; Basis Weight: 2.4 oz/yd2 (81 gsm); Tensile Strength: 30 lbs/in MD, 21 lbs/in CD.
Comments
After scouring the forums, I've found what kind of paper to use (PH neutral, around 80g, typically Japanese Masa).
But as for the linen... From what I've read people now use canvas?
What are the typical weights used for backing (in grams or ounces) for both linen and canvas?
I've read to use untreated linen, but what does that mean exactly?
Also with the canvas, is it generally called duck canvas
My issue is that in Paris theirs a garment district where they sell everything under the sun but w. restoration / backing, I want to make damn sure I get the right goods... And find the right translation.
Thanks a heap. I'm back in Paris and after I get my next shipment in, I'll get started on my first resto project and post the resulting disaster (in parts) on these forums.
Masa, i use a soft white, 70gsm, pliable enough when wet/damp to be laid down nicely and glued to the canvas. I get mine from Talas in NY.
Absolutely post some pictures of your linenbacking adventures, would love to see them!
On paper...
Masa paper here is only found in smaller sized sheets. No rolls for sale.
That being said, here's the question:
If the consensus is 70gsm, masa paper, obv acid free, would something of similar weight work or is it imperative to have the paper be 70-100 percent sulphite?
For example: I can find rolls of Kozo paper but usually in lower grains.
Basically, is it OK to use something other than Masa paper? And if yes, what should you look out for in terms of:
composition
weights
etc?
Most of the japanese paper here is from Awagami but it's like Shiramine (110gsm but doesn't list if its ph neutral).
One potential paper I have found which I can get on the cheap is this:
https://fabriano.com/en/36/accademia
Fabriano Accademia is 120gsm and ph neutral. After digging I saw that these restorers in Australia use them... https://www.studiomvintageposters.com.au/our-services
Anyway, I hope everyone is safe and sound. Things got a bit nuts here in Paris and we're still under a pseudo lockdown. Virus def isn't a joke. Few acquaintances here had it bad but all recovered.
Since we have the small luxury of having a spare room in our Parisien flat, I've annexed it (wife was not happy) so I can start working to conserve & restore my far too many posters (wife was happy).
For a workspace, I got a foldout ping pong table. Not entirely ideal, but it folds away. Was cheap. Has a decent size (154cm by 76cm) and is sturdy. Should support the weight of a frame and the canvas.
See photo with recently arrived 1kg of Calcium Hydroxide and Sodium Hypochlorite (french bleach which is 3.7 percent compared to Clorox which is about 6 percent...). Trying to find raw Calcium Hypochlorite was a bit complicated here and getting Chromium T you need a license...
Just for others to list what I've got (and the cost, which is far more expensive here than in the US...)
Ping Pong table: 100€
12oz duck canvas: 220€ *
Fabriano Academia 120 grain 1m x 10m roll: 80€ **
1kg Calcium Hydroxide: 28€
250g Calcium Carbonate: 8€
Faber watercolour pencils: 40€
Agate burnisher: 30€
Buckets / 1L Spray bottles / Rollers / Squeegee: 48€
Fancy eraser some resto guy recommended: 4€
Towels: 6€
80 micron polyester roll: 40€ ***
French version of Bestine: 20€
Plastic tarp: 4€
Gaffer tape: 7€
Shears / cutting razor / clamps / saw / odd tools needed: 60€
Staple gun w. staples: 40€
3M mask + filters + safety goggles + pack of gloves: 60€
6 34mm x 48mm x 2000mm wooden beams: 14€
10L of distilled water: 8€
6L 60% Acetic Acid (was cheaper for 6L than 1L...): 20€
French, pre made Wheat Paste I won't be using: 8€
48 beers, 2 bottles of Woodfords, case of Matua wine: 130€
Wife's patience: Priceless
Still needed:
Thicker (at least 120 microns) roll of polyster or mylar.
Rubber matt to roll over top of table.
Wheat Starch (about 1KG). ****
All in so far (not including posters ofc): 970€ (polyster will be another 100 at least)...
*canvas was bought from Jackson's in the UK. Had to add about 100€ for shipping an oversized item to France. Would have bought from Talas but they want 200€ to ship to Europe so...
**A roll of masa paper here... no one carries it. Every other kind of paper they have. Not masa.. If ordered, it will run me over 240+€. They sell it by the sheet but sheets are small. SO! An alternate I found was this paper by Fabriano which someone did recommend as getting Masa outside of Japan / US / Canada seems difficult. I called the company and asked around here and it is used by conservationist so it seems pretty good. Will see how it works. Once I find a source for Masa here though, I will get a roll to compare.
***Ah the Mylar. A 10m roll of Mylar runs over 200€ here. Closer to 3 or 4. Why? Not a clue. The next thing was to find a roll of polyester, but since I had zero idea what the thickness should be, I got the thickest one I could find (80 microns). That's about half what a Talas .7 thickness roll of Mylar is, but still on the thicker side of what is normally available. Can it work? I think so, but the main question is will it support the poster when lifting it to mount... Unsure so I'm looking for something a bit thicker unless someone here says 'nope, that's good for what you need'.
****Wheat Starch. Jesus Gawd Almighty. A number of companies here sell Wheat Paste, Corn Paste, Plant Paste... All claiming to be ph neutral and all for conservation. and all already a liquid / cooked... it's quite strange. I think I'm going to just end up buying 1KG of wheat starch from a pharmacy supplier (Coopers is the brand), and cook it myself. After following links that Charlie has shared over the years, I've read a bit and it really seems to be about the grade of the starch (in addition to the cook and ratio).
All in all what I thought would be the easiest place to find art conservation supplies has been a bit of a nightmare to get raw materials. Raw canvas / linen for example:
IN THE GARMENT DISTRICT WHERE FASHION DESIGNERS BUY BULK MATERIAL... was gonna run me around 400€ and up... for 10m... bonkers.
Whatever. I'm invested. I'm ready. And next week I'll post some photos of my first attempt at this. Can't wait.
the poster is sandwiched as it is porous. With Mylar you have to lift the Mylar off... you can simply float wash with the spun polyester.
https://www.preservationequipment.com/Catalogue/Conservation-Materials/Paper-Board/Japanese-Papers/Masa-Lining-Paper-70gsm-77gsm
You could even go with this 52 gsm mulberry on cotton duct. I used this for paper backing.
https://www.preservationequipment.com/Catalogue/Conservation-Materials/Paper-Board/Japanese-Papers/Mulberry-Japanese-Paper-Rolls-52gsm-25gsm
https://www.preservationequipment.com/Catalogue/Conservation-Materials/Other-Materials/Hollytex
34 gsm for washing if the mylar doesn't work out. I like the 70 gsm for paper/starch backing and heat pressing (ironing with a banding iron)
Them + Jackson's Art (also in the UK) seem to be the place to go too.
As for the 120gsm Fabriano paper, this is what it says on the website:
Fabriano Accademia drawing paper is made of high quality lignin free and acid free cellulose, guaranteeing long conservatione over time. Produced with 100% of E.C.F. pulp (Elemental Chlorine Free),
For Sulphite paper in Paris, it's only sold in sheets or Mulberry or lighter gsm papers (they all come from Awagami AFAIK). If you think the Fabriano is a bad idea in terms of conservation, then i'll scrap it and use it as a Mummy costume for Halloween. I need to dive into that Conservation Wiki to see if they've any documentation on ECF pulp papers...
FYI: You can buffer ph neutral wheat paste with calcium carbonate if you cook it. Just mix 10% in by weight before you cook. My wheat paste here was not ph neutral, so I always added Calcium Carbonate.
I'm back with an update and progress with pics!
Stretching teh Canvas.
Never done it before. Small frame (for daybills and inserts), was a breeze. Tight as a butthole.
Larger frame for one sheets, was tricky. At one point I had a bit of a swell to one side, but I stapled it just around the edge and it seemed to do the trick... Save for one itty bitty swell near the top. Hopefully it's still workable.
(you can see the swell at the top in the pic below)
Cookin' teh yayo (Wheat Paste)
After doing a lot of research on Wheat Paste (mainly the Talas brand everyone uses, I learned it's all made (that type) in the midwest for food processing. Tried to get some as the company is owned by Junkers (I fell into the rabbit hole here). After a phone call to a pharma company here (Coopers), I found their wheat paste, is lab grade and highly refined and is easily attainable in Paris. It's PH neutral which is a plus.
To make things easier I figured I could use a mason jar for mixing although not for cooking (though I could probably boil distilled water and just pour it in the jar)...
This is how that turned out.
Shake it baby.
The usual suspects. After letting it sit for about 60 minutes it separated so I shook it up again before the cook.
In the fridge it went for the night. The next day I scooped it out from the fridge (was like super thick. I used a cup of wheat startch and figured to try and make that last for mounting paper + poster across a 1 sheet and 1 insert (too ambitious?). That's about a liter and a half of the goods.
What I didn't do is forgot to measure out how much distilled water in grams to get the paste to the honey consistency. That said the paste when strained was HIGHLY refined to the point where hardly any clumps where left after the blender the next day.
Sprayed the backing paper with water to get them moist. Rolled the paste on the canvas'. Then rolled paste on the paper. Then put paper onto the canvas, rolling out any bubbles.
Wrinkles bad.
In the hall drying until tomorrow.
One thing did happen tho. My table isn't wide enough for the whole 1 sheet frame. When applying the paper and rolling it, a strange discolouration appeared where the table ended. See pic below.
Hopefully that's just excess paste soaking through the paper where their was more pressure on the paper when I was rolling it down... Hopefully.
Anyway, I decided to wait to post until I had something to really share instead of just blah blah.
More to come this weekend! Here's to no burning the hands, paper, colors or eyeballs! Wet work up next!
Justin, that's a solid start! Wheat starch looks to be in good shape after the fridge, and yes-add water in the blender to get the paste to the consistency of "runny honey" (Charlie phrase).
I use a new painting brush to apply the wheat paste-too much seems to create lumps, too much paste squeezing out here and there. Yes, important to have a smooth, flat work table that will hold your entire frame so when you roll out the masa, it is perfect, not one wrinkle or fold, or anything. Maybe move frame around so the part you need to roll out is on the flat table.
Yes, wheat starch cooks best on the stove, then into the fridge overnight.
Can't tell for sure, but the fold of masa, could be an issue, maybe the poster wont have to lay on that portion. Otherwise the masa looks to be laid down nicely. Wait at least 24 hours; masa need to be dry before adding the wet poster.
REally looking forward to your first poster down!
Went to work on two posters over the weekend. An insert from The Fixer with rather thick paper stock and a very elegant looking East German poster for Bedroom Window.
Here's how they turned out. I'm doing the resto this week and will do two more posters this weekend.
The Fixer (the first one I did), ended up tearing off the bottom third on a really gnarly fold line. Was kinda happy it did bc it was good practice to mount both pieces and will be fun to try to restore it back to life.
Close up on the tear I'll need to fix. Will probably end up buffering the crap out of it (i think?) and then go over it w. watercolour pencils.
I realize some things posted are getting a bit long in the tooth, however, if anyone has a video (or captioned pics) of wheat paste allocation to canvas/ duck and to Mesa, can you post it?
I'd like to avoid referencing the Posterfix site.
Cheers!
I would also buffer mine with Calcium Carbonate (10% by weight) which is in powder form and mixed into the wheat paste prior to cooking. If provides some additional reactants for acid (hydrogen) buildup over time since wheat paste is a little on the low side ph-wise (weak acid). There use to be a rumor that lab grade wheat paste yellowed over time and that could be because the wheat paste was low 6 maybe getting into the 5s without buffer. Just thinking out loud on that one.
Here is a great paper:
https://cool.culturalheritage.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/annual/v26/bpga26-28.pdf
Thank you