Linen Backing Movie Posters Part Two

John

I have added a follow up article on linen backing to www.OzeFilm.com with my opinions on the various pastes that linen backers use ...

It is a controversial subject and I hope you find it useful ...

http://www.ozefilm.com/linen-backing-movie-posters/

HumphreyBogart

Great read John! I'd swap all my linen backed posters for unbacked copies in a heartbeat if I had the chance..

David

Interesting indeed, and the valid point about there being a difference between a conservator and a restorer is probably something we never think about.

Mark

Apart from supporting the paper, how else is linen backing helping to preserve a poster? Great for framing and restoration, but I can't see the advantages when it is still exposed to air.

[Deleted User]

Mark said:

Apart from supporting the paper, how else is linen backing helping to preserve a poster? Great for framing and restoration, but I can't see the advantages when it is still exposed to air.

During the backing process the poster should be deacidified and possibly bleached if need be.  The submersion for both requires backing after just to support the paper fibers.

Mark

Until someone convinces me otherwise I'm remaining a sceptic about deacidification. 

I know I'm old school, but why not just isolate the poster in a poly sleeve and leave the poor thing in peace. It doesn't want all that handling, immersing in fluid and squeegeeing out!

[Deleted User]

Mark said:

Until someone convinces me otherwise I'm remaining a sceptic about deacidification. 

I know I'm old school, but why not just isolate the poster in a poly sleeve and leave the poor thing in peace. It doesn't want all that handling, immersing in fluid and squeegeeing out!

I am not an expert in restoration of course but the prevailing theory is that the paper is inherently acidic due to the (generally) poor paper stock used.  Neutralizing that acidity will no doubt help preserve the paper much longer.

Think about a regular newspaper - it turns yellow within a matter of months just left by itself!

Mark

I guess you're right.

My knowledge is limited, but I always thought that linen backing was a reversible practice. From what John has been saying the situation appears to be a little more complex. It doesn't seem like the poster can ever stand on its own again. I find that a shame.

Over to the experts who might enlighten us further ...

HumphreyBogart

CSM said:

I am not an expert in restoration of course but the prevailing theory is that the paper is inherently acidic due to the (generally) poor paper stock used.  Neutralizing that acidity will no doubt help preserve the paper much longer.

Think about a regular newspaper - it turns yellow within a matter of months just left by itself!

Have you ever noticed a linen backed posters white area's no longer look a clean white? I personally hate this. I can understand if a poster needs attention ie, major art work paper loss, major foxing mold issues and very dirty paper then im all for it. But what I can't seem to understand is near mint/ very fine condition posters getting stuck on linen.. It's ridiculous.  Especially the better title posters are nearly all stuck on linen, why? Because the owner is worried about conservation, framing or pure simple wants to boost the value of the poster.. take you're pick 

David

Sometimes people linenback because they frame better too.

If my memory serves me correctly all my framed posters are backed, I am not worried about preserving them for any perceived future value - I like seeing them on the wall. That said probably most, of not all of my framed posters were 'saved' and not arbitrarily backed because I wanted to frame them.

John

Mark said:

I guess you're right.

My knowledge is limited, but I always thought that linen backing was a reversible practice. From what John has been saying the situation appears to be a little more complex.

Whether a linen backed poster is reversible or not is another story entirely! Theoretically, you can remove a poster from the linen but it will not be the same as it was before it was backed. If you need to get it re backed that can certainly be done but it is not cheap and there could be issues with the restored areas. I could write an entire article on this but maybe Charlie might have some thoughts about it.

110x75

Deacidification may not be a major issue with US or other countries posters, but is vital when you collect argentinean or mexican ones. You people used better paper for posters. Down here we used the most shitty available. I have posters from the 60s and 70s that look like a damn newspaper from the 20s. They are extremely brittle and yellow (almost brown). There was a few exceptions of course (i have a one sheet for Target Earth, from 1954 that is extremely white)

Charlie

OK guys... It is a myth that poster have to be linenbacked once de-acidified...

The problems is that to do it properly, the poster would need to be flattened and dried at the same time.  The only way to do this is by using a heat press which runs about $1500...  Poster mountain has done this on a very expensive "Them" one sheet.

Although I have not seen it done, it is my opinion that if done correctly, on an above average condition poster, a poster can be unbacked and pressed and be just a good as before.  The paper composition does not change if properly handled after getting wet.  The stresses and strains of the shrink/swell un-uniformly is what can damage the paper.  Remember all paper is made wet by spraying pulp on a flat belt that is later heated with an oven for uniform drying.

If I ever can convince the wife to let me buy a heat press and find a place for it, I think I can debunk the "once backed, always backed" myth.

Caveat:  If the poster was a pig before backing, it will be a pig after reversing.  Some posters just need to be backed to prevent further damage.  Posters with fold separation and brittleness due to acid damage especially.  If the backing process is reversed that poster still needs some support.

Also the deacidification comments from Mark.  It is very true that not all poster need deacidifaction in their current state.  However the lignin in most older papers produce acids that eventually destroy paper.  

"Lignins are not acids, though most of them contain certain carboxylic acids, and wood gives off acids as it deteriorates, as do paper and board that contain lignin."

The cheaper the paper the more acidic it gets over time.  Also remember that just because a poster is deacidified and and acid buffer added does not mean that the paper won't still break down and become acidic again.  The process simply removes the current acid build up and leave base buffers to absorb future acid production from the paper.  If stores properly the acid reactions can also be slowed.  And don't freak out this buffer allows a lot of years of enjoyment (hundreds theoretically, if stored properly) before the acid will break down the paper.

That being said you can easily tell which poster really need deacidificatioin - yellowing...

And my rant has always been with restorers should not charge for deacidification.  Go ahead and remove the acids, provide a buffer to give the paper a longer life...  It is stupid to go through the risk of wetting a poster for backing without deacidifying it.

my 2 cents...

Charlie

110x75 said:

Deacidification may not be a major issue with US or other countries posters, but is vital when you collect argentinean or mexican ones. You people used better paper for posters. Down here we used the most shitty available. I have posters from the 60s and 70s that look like a damn newspaper from the 20s. They are extremely brittle and yellow (almost brown). There was a few exceptions of course (i have a one sheet for Target Earth, from 1954 that is extremely white)

I would say some damage and yellowing to these posters are from pollution and/or smoking...  It seems like every Argentinian poster I get, even in great condition, has a smoky smell to it.

[Deleted User]

Charlie said:

110x75 said:

Deacidification may not be a major issue with US or other countries posters, but is vital when you collect argentinean or mexican ones. You people used better paper for posters. Down here we used the most shitty available. I have posters from the 60s and 70s that look like a damn newspaper from the 20s. They are extremely brittle and yellow (almost brown). There was a few exceptions of course (i have a one sheet for Target Earth, from 1954 that is extremely white)

I would say some damage and yellowing to these posters are from pollution and/or smoking...  It seems like every Argentinian poster I get, even in great condition, has a smoky smell to it.

Matias and his damn fat cat cigars!

David

Fabulous input Charlie, thanks.

Matt

^ What dog face said. :-bd

Charlie

HumphreyBogart said:

CSM said:

I am not an expert in restoration of course but the prevailing theory is that the paper is inherently acidic due to the (generally) poor paper stock used.  Neutralizing that acidity will no doubt help preserve the paper much longer.

Think about a regular newspaper - it turns yellow within a matter of months just left by itself!

Have you ever noticed a linen backed posters white area's no longer look a clean white? 

This is an optical illusion...  The poster paper was never white to start with.  But next to a bright white masa backing the poster looks less white than you remember.  I use to say the same thing until I used white balance in photo post processing.

Mark

Thanks for great info, Charlie. Generally, I don't see Aust posters ageing / browning that badly.

I was just wondering if John has sold posters backed by the same guy and how he will deal with any complaints?

John

Mark said:

Thanks for great info, Charlie. Generally, I don't see Aust posters ageing / browning that badly.

I was just wondering if John has sold posters backed by the same guy and how he will deal with any complaints

All the posters I had backed by the restorer in question were for my personal collection - none have been sold. In any case, I wouldn't sell linen backed posters with foxing issues.

Mark

I thought you might have sold some a very long time ago before the problems were evident.

Where does all this leave the posters in question? It sounds like they will deteriorate further.

Charlie

Here is a daybil that had some slight yellowing...  Left is before, right after deacid and light bleach...

Charlie

OK here is a really bad one:

Mark

That Kwai was stored in a big pile of daybills out in a guy's garden shed since the 1970s. His wife wouldn't allow the posters inside!

I was looking at a lot of backed posters a few weeks ago and the white areas seemed very stark to me. I guess it's because my eye expects to see the toned patina typical of older posters. 

110x75

CSM said:

Matias and his damn fat cat cigars!

We, the greats, smoke with style!

110x75

Found a pic!

[Deleted User]

That Kwai really cleaned up nice!