Apparently it's all about the juxtaposition of colour...
WTF?
I think it is more so some 'expert' stating just how important the painting is due to that perceived juxtaposition that creates the $75 million result.
In many cases people need to be told what is desirable
Ah well I'm out now then . HA can't even achieve that price
Who said HA was the B-All and End-All of prices for Aussie paper prices? That's is a loose comment, I know you know that bigger prices have been reached in private sales so again, HA simply doesn't have the market cornered by any stretch, and besides you've said so yourself in the Wonderful Life thread
I understand the price is out of your range but that's not a benchmark, there is/will be a lot of interest in the poster, including from a rather large gathering of Hitchcock fans, the British Film Institute may have a look as will perhaps the National Film and Sound Archive, add to that serious collectors, institutional investors and so on.
I've got no idea whether it will sell, I'd like to see some bidding on it but I do think it's a valuable piece and probably worth top dollar from a historical perspective.
Firstly the price north of 10k is not at all out of my range. The reason why I said im out is because I truly don't believe its worth 10k, so I couldn't justifiably pay that amount. At best 5 - 6k maximum is where id price it.
You feel my comment on Heritage is loose? I'm not sure if you know but Heritage is known to achieve very high prices for movie posters they auction, they reach out to quite a lot of collectors.
Secondly your'e overnight research on Hitchcock posters just isn't gonna cut it. Some of us collectors have been collecting Hitchcock material for a long time and we have a great abundance of knowledge. Now you might or might not know that Hitchcock Australian paper is the main interest in my poster collecting..
Anyways it's just my opinion and best of luck with the auction.
Just for the fun of it...rather than going with emotion go with maths, demand and the growth of the hobby.
The poster purchased in 1996 (as mentioned previously) was bought for USD$1725 which adjusted for inflation to 2010 when it was sold again made it worth just USD$2,397.35 yet it sold for twice that, USD$4,780.00.
USD$4,780 adjust for inflation today is worth USD$5,176.68, now double it (just as the 2010 price doubled over the 1996 price) and that's $10,352 convert it to AUD = $12,723.70
Dig deep my son, dig deep.
Don't get too emotional Dave, No need to flog a dead horse..
Come on Reg, all you've been doing is talking down the prices and the stating reserves better not be too high because that will mean the sellers are too greedy, that's the only dead horse around here and you've ridden it into the ground.
And what's with the comment 'not sure if you know but Heritage is known to achieve very high prices for movie posters they auction' Really? I am not sure if you know I got the interwebbie, it is fun, I like it a lot, I like pictures, lots of boobies - we get colour TV this year, I hear it is wonderful.
I never said HA didn't achieve high prices, all I said is they aren't the only place where high prices have been achieved and you know very well the comment was directed at daybills.
The reason why Bidll is getting such wonderful and rare pieces is the sellers who own them [a] do NOT have to send them overseas thus risk posting them halfway round the world and all the costs and nervousness that goes with that [b] they CAN set a reserve which means they are protected from losing a shizzer load of money at a no reserve auction should only one buyer turn up to buy for their beloved piece [c] they do NOT have to pay a cent towards listing it [d] there is NO high seller's fee which depending on the auctioneer can range from 25% to 75% of the hammer price (plus some also charge a Seller's Premium on TOP of that). Seems to me the only reason we are seeing this stuff is because I put my proverbials and my wallet on the line, I love what I am seeing, I am getting such a kick out of some of the pieces that are coming up, I hope others are too - even if pieces do not sell.
I didn't mean to insult you about the $10K+ being out of your price range, if you took offense I apologise, but when all you're doing is critcising the dollars, be it the price or the reserve, then one starts to wonder because frankly, I believe when it comes to collecting (or buying anything for that matter) sometimes it is not about the price.
As I said, Blackmail, if it sells will go for bigger dollars than what you seem to be prepared to pay, in that case all I can suggest is wait for the next one...
Heritage doesn't always achieve high prices, particularly with Australian material. That should be obvious to anyone who looks through the database. One problem with buying high end Australian material overseas is the customs issues in Australia for items over $2000.00. That puts people off bidding. The fact is that there have been some amazing bargains over the years on some Australian material at Heritage and with Bruce. There are times when people just miss bidding on auctions, for whatever reason, and that can mean that some good posters can slip through the net.
Prices are subjective. We can talk everything down but I don't think that helps the hobby. I see that some think that Its a Wonderful Life daybill is worth more than the price it achieved at Heritage. In my opinion the price it sold for was reasonable. I don't think its worth any more than that but, hey, I wouldn't be bidding on it anyway. Those collectors who really appreciate that poster would probably have a different opinion.
I think Blackmail is a very important and rare daybill worth well and truly more than $10,000.00. I am a collector of Hitchcock material and the prices I have paid for some of the key pieces in my collection have been much higher than they would have achieved in auctions. I knew the history of where they were found and had a pretty good idea of how much the seller had paid for them. The thing is, I knew that I had an opportunity to get posters that might never come up again so I dug deep and purchased them. I hope my kids appreciate them when I kick the bucket!
Naturally there are collectors who would love to be able to get the Blackmail daybill for a low price but the only way that might happen will be if someone turns another one up.
Come on Reg, all you've been doing is talking down the prices and the stating reserves better not be too high because that will mean the sellers are too greedy, that's the only dead horse around here and you've ridden it into the ground.
Really, I said sellers are greedy? I was just voicing my opinion about the price after all. If I don't agree with you their is no need for you to take it personal my friend. I sense some sort of aggravation coming from you and im not sure why that is..
And what's with the comment 'not sure if you know but Heritage is known to achieve very high prices for movie posters they auction' Really? I am not sure if you know I got the interwebbie, it is fun, I like it a lot, I like pictures, lots of boobies - we get colour TV this year, I hear it is wonderful.
I never said HA didn't achieve high prices, all I said is they aren't the only place where high prices have been achieved and you know very well the comment was directed at daybills.
Again you sound fustrated, why that is I don't know..
The reason why Bidll is getting such wonderful and rare pieces is the sellers who own them [a] do NOT have to send them overseas thus risk posting them halfway round the world and all the costs and nervousness that goes with that [b] they CAN set a reserve which means they are protected from losing a shizzer load of money at a no reserve auction should only one buyer turn up to buy for their beloved piece [c] they do NOT have to pay a cent towards listing it [d] there is NO high seller's fee which depending on the auctioneer can range from 25% to 75% of the hammer price (plus some also charge a Seller's Premium on TOP of that). Seems to me the only reason we are seeing this stuff is because I put my proverbials and my wallet on the line, I love what I am seeing, I am getting such a kick out of some of the pieces that are coming up, I hope others are too - even if pieces do not sell.
Like I have said before, good effort Dave.
I didn't mean to insult you about the $10K+ being out of your price range, if you took offense I apologise, but when all you're doing is critcising the dollars, be it the price or the reserve, then one starts to wonder because frankly, I believe when it comes to collecting (or buying anything for that matter) sometimes it is not about the price.
I did not take offense to you're comment at all. Critcising dollars? Again I was just voicing my opinion and had no intentions critcising.
As I said, Blackmail, if it sells will go for bigger dollars than what you seem to be prepared to pay, in that case all I can suggest is wait for the next one...
To be frank, Blackmail is not at the top of my want list for Hitchcock's brithish films. No waiting for me, if it comes along for a price i like I'll grab it if not, moving along..
Heritage doesn't always achieve high prices, particularly with Australian material. That should be obvious to anyone who looks through the database. One problem with buying high end Australian material overseas is the customs issues in Australia for items over $2000.00. That puts people off bidding. The fact is that there have been some amazing bargains over the years on some Australian material at Heritage and with Bruce. There are times when people just miss bidding on auctions, for whatever reason, and that can mean that some good posters can slip through the net.
I agree, not always. I believe you have consigned some nice Australian posters to Heritage in the past John, may I ask why you chose to consign to them? Was it a roll of a dice decision or something else?
Prices are subjective. We can talk everything down but I don't think that helps the hobby. I see that some think that Its a Wonderful Life daybill is worth more than the price it achieved at Heritage. In my opinion the price it sold for was reasonable. I don't think its worth any more than that but, hey, I wouldn't be bidding on it anyway. Those collectors who really appreciate that poster would probably have a different opinion.
I think Blackmail is a very important and rare daybill worth well and truly more than $10,000.00. I am a collector of Hitchcock material and the prices I have paid for some of the key pieces in my collection have been much higher than they would have achieved in auctions. I knew the history of where they were found and had a pretty good idea of how much the seller had paid for them. The thing is, I knew that I had an opportunity to get posters that might never come up again so I dug deep and purchased them. I hope my kids appreciate them when I kick the bucket!
Naturally there are collectors who would love to be able to get the Blackmail daybill for a low price but the only way that might happen will be if someone turns another one up.
Again that is you're opinion John and youre entitled to it. There are plenty of other Hitchcock collectors that I know of agree with me and feel its not worth near that figure.
There are plenty of other Hitchcock collectors that I know of agree with me and feel its not worth near that figure.
Not sure who the other collectors you are talking about are but I'm sure none of them have anything on Blackmail.
This is irrelevant 100%. You may have overlooked at the question I asked you earlier, so I'll re post it again.
I believe you have consigned some nice Australian posters to Heritage in the past John, may I ask why you chose to consign to them? Was it a roll of a dice decision or something else?
I take it you won't be looking to own this piece then?
No, not at the mentioned price. I thought I made that quite clear by now..
The seller has been fishing for a customer too offload this poster for nearly two years if im not mistaken. Has had it listed on HA, buy it now from the owner program or best offer during that period. As you can see in the photo. Just a reminder you might want to let the seller know about blls policy about listing else where before auction is live.
There are plenty of other Hitchcock collectors that I know of agree with me and feel its not worth near that figure.
Not sure who the other collectors you are talking about are but I'm sure none of them have anything on Blackmail.
This is irrelevant 100%. You may have overlooked at the question I asked you earlier, so I'll re post it again.
I believe you have consigned some nice Australian posters to Heritage in the past John, may I ask why you chose to consign to them? Was it a roll of a dice decision or something else?C
Consignments are usually private between the auction house and the consignor. I consign posters to some auctions and will probably continue to do so.
As to the reference to a buyitnow price on Heritage, that was removed some time ago but they apparently have some sort of technical issue that is causing it to remain on the site in various places. I don't have any control over why it is appearing now. I have had to email Grey Smith and ask him to remove it.
Reg, one of the reasons why David is getting such good material is that sellers can set reserves with no risk of getting burnt. I thought it was a good thing to see so many great items up for sale. The reserve for Blackmail has not been published yet despite all the speculation. You and I both have a different idea of its value and that's not a problem.
Reg I think you need to take a big breath, you are getting overheated and in people's faces simply because you seem to be frustrated at a seller setting a price for his item you really want because owning it would put you in a place that other Hitchcock collectors could only dream about.
But let me be very clear, Bidll is my website, I have spent my money on it (far more than Blackmail is worth), I alone will decide on what is allowed on my website and I alone will make the decision as to what contravenes policy, so do not publicly chastise me or even 'remind me' on something you have not spent a cent on or in.
Do you really think the seller gives a toss what you think about the price he is asking, that's the price he wants for it, I am guessing he doesn't care if it doesn't sell but if it does, well then that's the price. The major point is he owns it you don't, the poster may or may not be the last one you will ever see for this title so if you want the poster buy it, if you don't want it or can't afford it or think it is too dear then don't buy it.
I've also heard thru the grapevine you are trashing the auction to other collectors (because of reserves), sounds like sour grapes from someone who can't afford to play in the sandbox - I understand you don't like reserves but that is your opinion I don't see why you need to spend so much energy rubbishing the auction because of it.
Aren't reserves part of most auctions? Auto's, paintings, wine... If I had purchased a classic Ferrari and wanted to sell it, I would damn make sure I or at least the auction house would set a reasonable reserve, or I would not part with it, or realize I would have to sell it for a loss if I needed the money.----- I see the Bidll site/auction as the one of the ultimate ways a collector can express his passion. Bruce went that route years ago and has achieved great success. Whether its Charlie who a few years ago who jumped headfirst into the art of conservation and restoration of posters, or pushing one's self to achieve a greater collection, or David starting up an auction, those things are to be applauded in our world of movie posters. =D>----Enough said...
Bidll is certainly a commendable achievement (as you know I have even found a couple nice posters there ) And I do enjoy seeing all the items being listed for the upcoming auction - quite a few are examples I have not seen before.
Reserves are a touchy issue of course. I, for one, do not like them either. In a way they are an attempt to set an arbitrary market level for an item. In my opinion, a true reflection of a poster's market "value" is the price it achieves in a "free market" auction with no reserves. But of course I understand reserves from a seller's point of view and this is the collector in me commenting.
I think part of the disappointment with reserves is that, at least for some posters that are likely to be part of the upcoming auction, they have been for sale elsewhere (possibly for a long while) at prices that did not achieve a sale (case in point the Blackmail if it is the same seller/poster). The fear for a collector who is looking forward to the auction is that those consignors simply slap on that same price as a reserve. It's fair game certainly but should that occur collectors who may be interested in these posters will essentially still be in the same boat which creates a certain level of apathy.
Isn't retail an arbitrary attempt to set a value on something? If it doesn't sell, a price reduction follows or the item is not sold. I see posters every week that start with no reserve but past sales and my shallow pockets tell me I won't be in the game in the final hour or five mins before closing.
Wouldn't it be great if that was actually the case with some posters?
Are you saying that as a seller or a buyer? Both have different vested interests...
Of course they do.
But if someone is SERIOUS about selling a poster and they have had it listed at a price point that has not resulted in a sale for a very long time where is the logic in continuing to leave it at that price point? They are either not serious about selling it or they are trying in vain to establish a market value based on their own perceived "value" of the item.
I can say "this poster is worth $500" and list it at that price. If I really, honestly want to sell it and I have it listed for 6 months at $500 and it does not sell - who is the one that is likely to be wrong about it's market value - me as a solitary seller or a plethora of potential buyers who are not buying at $500?
I agree Chris, if someone is serious about selling a poster they will lower the price especially if it has not sold in a long time-and I can imagine-although I do not have a lot of knowledge of how people attempt to establish a market value, especially in higher end posters-but I am looking at it from a seller or a buyer perspective. I believe if it's your property, you have the choice to set whatever level the outlet allows you too choose. Buyers ultimately determine price, not sellers, reserves are just part of the game of sales...
I think the phrase 'serious about selling' has a double meaning
1. Serious about selling at the best price possible one can get under current market conditions
2. Serious about selling at the price (the seller has) set.
If I am selling and do not have to sell (needing the money) then why rush, I'll put it out there and if it sells it sells if not then I still own it and I can wait. I also think people assume sellers are selling because they need the money, I am sure that is just not the case more times than not.
The point about that Blackmail for sale on HA for several years is it wasn't actually for sale on HA, that has been confirmed, it was listed by mistake by HA, who were told to remove it long ago and didn't (and they admitted to that fact) so the fact is, it hasn't languished unsold all these years because it was never for sale.
Bottom line reserves are reality and have been around for a long time, the few auction houses who do offer no reserve auctions rarely get the (quamtity of) premium pieces surely you would agree with that?
And saying reserves are part of the game of sales is just part of the game the buyers play who don't like reserves.
I think the phrase 'serious about selling' has a double meaning
1. Serious about selling at the best price possible one can get under current market conditions
2. Serious about selling at the price (the seller has) set.
If I am selling and do not have to sell (needing the money) then why rush, I'll put it out there and if it sells it sells if not then I still own it and I can wait. I also think people assume sellers are selling because they need the money, I am sure that is just not the case more times than not.
I have a poster on Bidll for sale. It's a well over "market value". It's the only one on the internet market that I can see. If someone really wants it...it's there. If it sells good, if not I'm not fussed.
Edit Hmmm just saw a seller has sold two copies 35% dearer than mine!
One point is lots of people tend to think only movie posters collectors buy movie posters, we are by nature cheap-asses so will down-value anything we want to buy. But when it comes to premium or culturally or historically significant ones other buyers come out of the woodwork. Was it a poster collector who paid top dollar for that Houdini on Bruce's? And so on - be ssured more than just poster collectors know about this poster/event, they may become buyer they may not, but they know.
Comments
In many cases people need to be told what is desirable
Heritage doesn't always achieve high prices, particularly with Australian material. That should be obvious to anyone who looks through the database. One problem with buying high end Australian material overseas is the customs issues in Australia for items over $2000.00. That puts people off bidding. The fact is that there have been some amazing bargains over the years on some Australian material at Heritage and with Bruce. There are times when people just miss bidding on auctions, for whatever reason, and that can mean that some good posters can slip through the net.
Prices are subjective. We can talk everything down but I don't think that helps the hobby. I see that some think that Its a Wonderful Life daybill is worth more than the price it achieved at Heritage. In my opinion the price it sold for was reasonable. I don't think its worth any more than that but, hey, I wouldn't be bidding on it anyway. Those collectors who really appreciate that poster would probably have a different opinion.
I think Blackmail is a very important and rare daybill worth well and truly more than $10,000.00. I am a collector of Hitchcock material and the prices I have paid for some of the key pieces in my collection have been much higher than they would have achieved in auctions. I knew the history of where they were found and had a pretty good idea of how much the seller had paid for them. The thing is, I knew that I had an opportunity to get posters that might never come up again so I dug deep and purchased them. I hope my kids appreciate them when I kick the bucket!
Naturally there are collectors who would love to be able to get the Blackmail daybill for a low price but the only way that might happen will be if someone turns another one up.
Not sure who the other collectors you are talking about are but I'm sure none of them have anything on Blackmail.
Consignments are usually private between the auction house and the consignor. I consign posters to some auctions and will probably continue to do so.
As to the reference to a buyitnow price on Heritage, that was removed some time ago but they apparently have some sort of technical issue that is causing it to remain on the site in various places. I don't have any control over why it is appearing now. I have had to email Grey Smith and ask him to remove it.
Reg, one of the reasons why David is getting such good material is that sellers can set reserves with no risk of getting burnt. I thought it was a good thing to see so many great items up for sale. The reserve for Blackmail has not been published yet despite all the speculation. You and I both have a different idea of its value and that's not a problem.
Reserves are a touchy issue of course. I, for one, do not like them either. In a way they are an attempt to set an arbitrary market level for an item. In my opinion, a true reflection of a poster's market "value" is the price it achieves in a "free market" auction with no reserves. But of course I understand reserves from a seller's point of view and this is the collector in me commenting.
I think part of the disappointment with reserves is that, at least for some posters that are likely to be part of the upcoming auction, they have been for sale elsewhere (possibly for a long while) at prices that did not achieve a sale (case in point the Blackmail if it is the same seller/poster). The fear for a collector who is looking forward to the auction is that those consignors simply slap on that same price as a reserve. It's fair game certainly but should that occur collectors who may be interested in these posters will essentially still be in the same boat which creates a certain level of apathy.
But if someone is SERIOUS about selling a poster and they have had it listed at a price point that has not resulted in a sale for a very long time where is the logic in continuing to leave it at that price point? They are either not serious about selling it or they are trying in vain to establish a market value based on their own perceived "value" of the item.
I can say "this poster is worth $500" and list it at that price. If I really, honestly want to sell it and I have it listed for 6 months at $500 and it does not sell - who is the one that is likely to be wrong about it's market value - me as a solitary seller or a plethora of potential buyers who are not buying at $500?